The Future of Humanity - Jiddu Krishnamurti dialogue with David Bohm (Session 1 of 2)

Sunday, 16 March 2008

Page 1 of 9

The Future of Humanity is a dialogue between J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm which took place in Brockwood Park, England in 1983. Starting with the questions: Are psychologists really concerned with the future of man? Are they concerned with the human being conforming to the present society, or going beyond that? - the conversation embarks on the incredible journey of the unconditioned mind and asks if the consciousness of mankind can be changed through time into timelessness.

Session 1: Part 1 of 9

Transcript of the Talk

J.Krishnamurti: I thought we were going to talk about the future of man.
Dr.David Bohm: Yes.
JK: I mean, really, when we talk about man, were are talking about humanity.
DB: The whole of mankind.
JK: The whole of mankind. Not the British or the French or the Russian or the American but the whole of human beings.
DB: The future is all inter linked anyway.
JK: As things are, from what one observes the world has become tremendously dangerous.
DB: Yes.
JK: Terrorists, wars, and the national divisions and racial divisions, some dictators who want to destroy the world and so on and so on. And also religiously there is tremendous separation.
DB: Yes, I think there is the economic crisis and the ecological crisis.
JK: Yes. Ecological and economic problems. Problems seem to multiplying more and more. So, what is the future of man? What is the future of not only the present generation but the coming generations?
DB: Yes, well, the future looks very grim..
JK: Very grim. If you were quite young and I was quite young, what would we do knowing all this. What would be our reactions? What would be our life, our way of earning a livelihood and so on.
DB: Yes, well, I have often thought of that. For example, I have asked myself," Would I go into science again?"
JK: Yes.
DB: And, I am not at all certain now because science does not seem to be relevant to this crisis.
JK: No. No. No. On the contrary they are helping.
DB: It makes it worse. Yes.
JK: Yes, they are helping.
DB: It might help but in fact it isn't.
JK: So, what would you do? I think I would stick to what I am doing.
DB: Well, that would be easy for you.
JK: For me, quite easy.
DB: But, several problems - of course I don't know if we want to discuss them - if a person is just starting out, he has to make a living, right?
DB: But there are several problems. Of course I don't know the point of this discussion. If a person is just starting out he has to make a living - right?
JK: Of course.
DB: Now there are very few opportunities now, and most of these are in jobs which are very limited.
JK: Limited and unemployment right throughout the world. I wonder what he would do, knowing that the future is grim, very depressing, dangerous and so uncertain. Where would you begin?
DB: Yes, well I think one would have to stand back from all these particular problems of my own needs and the needs of other people around me.
JK: Are you saying one should really forget oneself for the time being?
DB: Yes.
JK: Even if I did forget myself and when I look at this world in which I am going to live, and have some kind of career or a profession, and the unemployment. What would I do? This is a problem that I think most young people are facing.
DB: Yes. That's clear. Well have you something that you would suggest?
JK: Eh?
DB: Is there something which you could suggest?
JK: You see I don't think in terms of evolution.
DB: Yes I understand that. That's the point I was expecting we would discuss.
JK: Eh?
DB: I was expecting we would discuss that.
JK: Yes. I don't think there is psychological evolution at all.
DB: Yes. Now we have discussed this quite often so I think I understand to some extent what you mean. But I think that people who are new to this, who are viewing this tape, are not going to understand.
JK: Yes, we will discuss it. But I want to discuss this whole question, if you will: Why are we concerned about the future? Only the whole future is now.
DB: Yes, in some sense the whole future is now but we have to make that clear. This goes very much against the whole way of thinking of the tradition of mankind and all of us.
JK: Yes, I know. It goes - I know. Mankind thinks in terms of evolution, continuance and so on.
DB: Maybe we could approach it in another way. That is, evolution seems in the present era to be the most natural way to think. So I would like to ask you what objections do you have to thinking in terms of evolution. Could I explain a point: this has many meanings, this word.
JK: Of course, of course. We are talking psychologically.
DB: Yes, now the first point is let's dispose of it physically.
JK: I mean an acorn will grow into an oak.
DB: Yes. Well also the species have evolved for example from the plants to the animals and to man.
JK: Yes, we have taken a million years to be what we are.
DB: You have no question that that has happened?
JK: No, that has happened.
DB: It may continue to happen.
JK: That is evolution.
DB: That is a valid process.
JK: Of course. That is a valid natural process.
DB: It takes place in time. And therefore in that region the past, present and future are important.
JK: Yes obviously. I don't know a certain language, I need time to learn it.
DB: Well also it takes time to improve the brain. You see if the brain started out small with this, and then it got bigger and bigger, that took a million years.
JK: Yes, and becomes much more complex and so on. All that needs time. All that is movement in space and time.
DB: Yes. So you will admit physical time and neurophysiological time.
JK: Neurophysiological time, absolutely. Of course. Any sane man would.
DB: Yes. Now most people also admit psychological time, what they call mental time.
JK: Yes, that is what we are talking about. Whether there is such a thing as psychological tomorrow, psychological evolution.
DB: Or yesterday. Yes, now at first sight I am afraid this will sound strange. It seems I can remember yesterday, and there is tomorrow, I can anticipate. And it has happened many times, you know days have succeeded each other. So I do have the experience of time, from yesterday to today to tomorrow - right?
JK: Of course. That is simple enough.
DB: That is simple enough. Now what is it you are denying?
JK: I deny that I will be something, become better.
DB: I can change... but now there are two ways of looking at that. You see one way is will I intentionally become better because I am trying? Or, secondly some people feel that evolution is a kind of natural, inevitable process, in which we are being swept along like in a current, and we are perhaps becoming better, worse, or something is happening to us.
JK: Psychologically.
DB: Psychologically, yes, which takes time which may not be the result of my trying to become better. It may or may not be. Some people may think one way, some another. But are you denying also that there is a kind of natural psychological evolution as there was a natural biological evolution?
JK: I am denying that, yes.
DB: Yes. Now why do you deny it?
JK: Because first of all, what is the psyche?
DB: Yes.
JK: The me, the ego, and so on, what is it?
DB: Yes, now the word psyche has many meanings. It may mean the mind for example. Now do you mean by that the ego is the same thing?
JK: The ego. I am talking of the ego, the me.
DB: Yes. Now some people who are thinking of evolution are thinking there will be an evolution in which the me is transcended. That is that it will rise to a higher level.
JK: Yes, will the transition - does transition need time?
DB: A transcendence, a transition.
JK: Yes. That is my whole question.
DB: Yes. So there are two questions: one is will the me ever improve? That is one argument. And another argument, is even if we suppose we want to get beyond the me, can that be done in time?