The Future of Humanity - Jiddu Krishnamurti dialogue with David Bohm (Session 2 of 2)

Sunday, 16 March 2008

Page 1 of 7

The Future of Humanity is a dialogue between J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm which took place in Brockwood Park, England in 1983. Starting with the questions: Are psychologists really concerned with the future of man? Are they concerned with the human being conforming to the present society, or going beyond that? - the conversation embarks on the incredible journey of the unconditioned mind and asks if the consciousness of mankind can be changed through time into timelessness.

Session 2: Part 1 of 7

Transcript of the Talk

J. Krishnamurti: Are all the psychologists, as far as we can understand, really concerned with the future of humanity? Or are they concerned with the human being conforming to the present society? Or going beyond that?
David Bohm: I think that most psychologists evidently want the human being to conform to this society, but I think some are thinking of going beyond that, to transform the consciousness of mankind.
JK: Can the consciousness of mankind be changed through time? That is one of the questions we should discuss.
DB: Yes. We have discussed it already and I think what came out was that with regard to consciousness time is not relevant, that it is a kind of illusion. We discussed the illusion of becoming.
JK: We are saying, aren't we, that the evolution of consciousness is a fallacy.
DB: As through time, yes. Though physical evolution is not.
JK: Can we put it this way, much more simply? There is no psychological evolution, or evolution of the psyche?
DB: Yes. And, since the future of humanity depends on the psyche, it seems then that the future of humanity is not going to be determined through actions in time. And then that leaves us the question: what will we do?
JK: Now let's proceed from there. Shouldn't we first distinguish between the brain and the mind?
DB: Well that distinction has been made, and it is not clear. Now of course there are several views. One that the mind is just a function of the brain - that is the materialists' view. There is another view which says mind and brain are two different things.
JK: Yes, I think they are two different things.
DB: But there must be...
JK: ...a contact between the two.
DB: Yes.
JK: A relationship between the two.
DB: We don't necessarily imply any separation of the two.
JK: No. First let's see the brain. I am really not an expert on the structure of the brain and all that kind of thing. But one can see within one, one can observe from one's own activity of the brain, that it is really like a computer which has been programmed, and remembers.
DB: Certainly a large part of the activity is that way, but one is not certain that all of it is that way.
JK: No. And it is conditioned.
DB: Yes.
JK: Conditioned by past generations, by the society, by the newspapers, by the magazines, by all the activities and pressures from the outside. It is conditioned.
DB: Now what do you mean by this conditioning?
JK: The brain is programmed; it is made to conform to a certain pattern; it lives entirely on the past, modifying itself with the present and going on.
DB: We have agreed that some of this conditioning is useful and necessary.
JK: Of course.
DB: But the conditioning which determines the self, you know, which determines the...
JK: ...the psyche. Let's call it for the moment the psyche. The self.
DB: The self, the psyche, that conditioning is what you are talking about. That may not only be unnecessary but harmful.
JK: Yes. The emphasis on the psyche, on giving importance to the self, is creating great damage in the world, because it is separative and therefore it is constantly in conflict, not only within itself but with the society, with the family, and so on.
DB: Yes. And it is also in conflict with nature.
JK: With nature, with the whole universe.
DB: We have said that the conflict arose because...
JK: ...of division....
DB: The division arising because thought is limited. Being based on this conditioning, on knowledge and memory, it is limited.
JK: Yes. And experience is limited, therefore knowledge is limited; memory and thought. And the very structure and nature of the psyche is the movement of thought.
DB: Yes.
JK: In time.
DB: Yes. Now I would like to ask a question. You discussed the movement of thought but it doesn't seem clear to me what is moving. You see, if I discuss the movement of my hand, that is a real movement. It is clear what is meant. But now, when we discuss the movement of thought, it seems to me we are discussing something which is a kind of illusion, because you have said that becoming is the movement of thought.
JK: That is what I mean, the movement is becoming.
DB: But you are saying that movement is in some way illusory, aren't you?
JK: Yes, of course.
DB: It is rather like the movement on the screen which is projected from the camera. We say that there are no objects moving across the screen, but the only real movement is the turning of the projector. Now can we say that there is a real movement in the brain which is projecting all this, which is the conditioning?
JK: That is what we want to find out. Let's discuss that a bit. We both agree, or see, that the brain is conditioned.
DB: We mean that really it has been impressed physically, and chemically....
JK: And genetically, as well as psychologically.
DB: What is the difference between physically and psychologically?
JK: Psychologically the brain is centred in the self - right?
DB: Yes.
JK: And the constant assertion of the self is the movement, the conditioning, an illusion.
DB: But there is some real movement happening inside. The brain, for example, is doing something. It has been conditioned physically and chemically. And something is happening physically and chemically when we are thinking of the self.
JK: Are you asking whether the brain and the self are two different things?
DB: No, I am saying that the self is the result of conditioning the brain.
JK: Yes. The self is conditioning the brain.
DB: But does the self exist?
JK: No.
DB: But the conditioning of the brain, as I see it, is the involvement with an illusion which we call the self.
JK: That's right. Can that conditioning be dissipated? That's the whole question.
DB: It really has to be dissipated in some physical and chemical and neurophysiological sense.
JK: Yes.
DB: Now the first reaction of any scientific person would be that it looks unlikely that we could dissipate it by the sort of thing we are doing. You see, some scientists might feel that maybe we will discover drugs or new genetic changes or deep knowledge of the structure of the brain. In that way we could perhaps help to do something. I think that idea might be current among some people.
JK: Will that change human behaviour?
DB: Why not? I think some people believe it might.
JK: Wait a minute. That is the whole point. It might, which means in the future.
DB: Yes, it would take time to discover all this.
JK: In the meantime man is going to destroy himself.
DB: They might hope that he will manage to discover it in time. They could also criticize what we are doing, saying what good can it do? You see, it doesn't seem to affect anybody, and certainly not in time to make a big difference.